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12th, 6th and 8th houses
Mar. 10th, 2023 12:07 pmIt's the big bad as far as houses go, alongside the 6th and the 8th.
The Karmic Ghosts of your Natal Chart. Zoom. Join us at 7:15 pm (GMT). Anyone can attend but you must register for a tiny fee first.
https://brightonastrologycircle.com/the-karmic-ghosts-of-your-natal-chart/.
The theme: The Fourth, Eighth, and Twelfth houses compel us to confront the debts, shadows of former incarnations, our connection with our lineage, and the karmic stories associated with our genealogical tree. How can we navigate them in a conscious way? We will explore specific astrological signatures and strategies to empower our clients karmically.
Modern ideas for meanings (spirituality etc.) rely on the two broken modern systems that ignore basic astrological logic. The first is the '12 Letter Alphabet' which equates the 12th house with Pisces (falsely), and the second is shoehorning the outer planets into the dignities scheme, breaking it entirely.
I primarily do horary work, and I have never seen a chart about spirituality resolve beneficially via the 12th house. What I have seen, however, is one chart which showed the person obsessed with their spirituality (House 9 and Lord 9) and utterly dominated by their 12th house (self-undoing, harm etc.) by placement, contact with it's Lord and so on. They eventually left their cult and are much happier now, though they still seem prone to every spiritual fad that pops up online.
Obviously it's easier to be nebulous and vague with primarily psychological modern astrology, as people can be convinced of basically anything about themselves as it will be hard to verify or disprove.
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celestialcranberry
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1 day ago
What an interesting reply. I understand how house 8 is a ‘big bad’ as you say, but why the sixth? If you’re willing to share; I know it can be draining explaining.
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capri-corny
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1 day ago
In traditional astrology, the 6th house represents ill health/sickness (aswell as the 12th, which is usually a more serious illness or hospitalization) and servants. Also, animals too small to ride.
The 6th house is a cadent. Planets in cadent houses are weaker, less effective. Cadent houses are seen as falling away from the angles (1,4,7,10) which are the most effective houses. Planets move in diurnal motion so when they are in cadent houses they are essentially falling away from the angular houses where they have the most strength.
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ma-cells
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1 day ago
Would you place mental health/illness in the 12th as well, given that the 12th rules chronic illnesses and isolation?
I also heard in Vedic astrology, 12th rules foreign places.
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capri-corny
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11 hr. ago
The 6th house mainly represents illnesses of all kinds. It would be the first house I look to regarding any type of illness or in horary I would use the 6th house for the illness in question. Although, the 12th house does represent anguish of mind, secrets, hidden things and isolation, like you mentioned which I could personally see relating to mental illness. You really have to read the chart as a whole, it tells the whole story. The 8th house is the house of death but also things that bring fear and anxiety. I feel these 3 houses really can go hand in hand with some of the mental health things. It would depend on what you are specifically looking for or asking about I guess.
I am unfamiliar with vedic astrology so I can't speak on that but I take the 9th house as foreign places.
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1 day ago
Oh, thank you for this detailed reply. It really puts some sixth houses I’ve looked at in better perspective.
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1 day ago
You've had a partially solid reply regarding why the 6th house is a negative spot (though positing the 12th house as more serious illness and 'hospitals' is not correct in traditional logic), but to expand:
The three houses that do not 'behold' (i.e. form major aspect to) the ascendant are the most negative houses, so that's H6, H8 and H11. We exclude H2 from this, just FYI. As they are broadly 'hidden' from the native they are the places where life's hidden problems sneak up on us from, so:
Illness is the 6th house, death the 8th and 'self undoing', hidden enemies and so on the 12th. Each of them are things we have little knowledge of until they strike.
To clarify my comment regarding the 12th house not relating to more serious illness: this idea comes from the mistaken concept that people who are seriously ill are 'incarcerated' in hospitals, making them the same as prisons which are H12. No matter how sick they are, they are not in prison simply because they are in hospital. It's poor logic. A hospital is the 'house of the sick' so is a 6th house matter.
Thank you for this in depth reply! I typically am attracted to learning about the 8th house, I have 5 planets there in Aries. Most of the rest fall into the sixths house though and something in my heart just….would not let me look into it until now. I am not a beginner by any means but the sixth house and twelfth has damn near hid themselves from me (in regards to myself) until now. So, thank you again for this wonderful insight.
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Yes, meditation and self-reflection is a good way to encounter your spiritual self, but again those things are 9th house matters. If you choose isolation, I would argue that it's not a 12th house matter, as you have a choice. A monk in a monastery (for example) is in a house of religion, not a prison - 9th house not 12th. This is the case whether he is surrounded by people or chooses to pray in his room all day and never interact with another soul until the day he dies. A prisoner, by contrast, has no agency in his imprisonment and this would be a 12th house matter.
So yes, spiritual matters and meditation often go hand in hand, just not with the 12th house by any traditional astrological standard.
You could, of course, be suffering under 12th house matters - self undoing, vices, sins, drugs, criminality and so on - and use spirituality and meditation to get back on track. Presumably you would still see a lot of 12th house focus in that, but it would relate to the problem rather than the solution.
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To my knowledge, the reason that something like a curse would be a 12th house matter is that regardless of who the 'enemy' is who attempted to curse a person, the nature of the attack is a hidden one, either in action or in attempted outcome. There's a mistaken idea that all witchcraft, good or bad, is 12th house but this appears to have emerged from texts in the past where 'witchcraft' was culturally considered to only be evil magic. Understandable mistake for people to make, I suppose!
I don't think I agree with Coppock's idea of isolated meditation as a 12th house matter. The sort of isolation the 12th house regards is really not the isolation you choose, hence prisons. For meditation, isolated or not, it's likely to be the 9th house.
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Illustrious_View_849
OP
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18 hr. ago
I can see that as well. I also agree that historically magic/witchcraft was considered all bad, hence, associated with 12. I can see rituals and other mundane associations with magic in the 3rd, along with dreams and Goddesses. Do you see wholly bad in the 12th then? What about conspirtualitly, or would that be 9th too?
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
I place magic as a concept almost exclusively in the 9th house, as the third is highly mundane, focussing on very ordinary, day to day and routine things. It's for the same reason that H9 is our special journeys like pilgrimages, where H3 is our commonplace journeys like a commute (this difference is often mischaracterised as 'long or short journeys'). Occasionally it incorporates the 5th house for spells people do (as they are their 'creation') but this likely isn't relevant in a natal context. Dreams are also 9th house matters, and I can see Goddesses as 3rd house only if we are viewing them in the context of being the spouse of another god, in the same way that a native's marriage/spouse is their 7th, and the 3rd is 7 houses from the 9th. Some people also put gods as H10, which would make goddesses (or vice versa depending on which was the ruling god/goddess and which was the spouse) H4.
The 'conspirituality' thing is an interesting one, as it's where context has to be key. The person I might consider victim of conspirituality might consider their views perfectly normal spirituality! Still, if it is their 'self-undoing', then we'd expect the 12th house to be a major factor, possibly with interlinking focus with the 9th, much in the way that e.g. cult membership might show that way. To be frank, it's not a concept I've thought on all that much so consider that last bit general theorising rather than anything defnite.
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Illustrious_View_849
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17 hr. ago
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I never thought of spells in the 5th! Even though the 3rd is full of mundane rituals, I’ve always considered our spiritual rituals within this. I pull a tarot card every morning type ritual. Plus it being the joy of the moon that I’ve gleaned more spiritual undertones. I’m interested in others thoughts on the matter regarding conspirtiuality, and where it may fall. It’s not a new phenomenon, but with the rise of social media, and commercialization of mystical things, it would be interesting in what house it would fall.
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
If it's a small thing you do every day, in the same way you might go to the corner shop every day then sure it might sit in the 3rd as an action. However, the practice of tarot definitely doesn't. It's that whole context thing again, really - where things sit in the chart is frequently relative, like when people say 'other people's money' is always H8. It is if it's an H7 person, but if it's my dad's money then it's H5, as he's H4 (and so on - the examples are endless!).
This has been a great talk, thank you.
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starrywinecup
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14 hr. ago
Have you ever considered meditation of the self as a way to find that spirituality? Then again my 12th house is Sagittarius(9th) Because it happened to me, I felt I had no choice but to isolate, otherwise harm would come to me, I had no help, after about a year I emerged with my evolved personal belief and help through my spirituality.
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kidcubby
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13 hr. ago
Yes, meditation and self-reflection is a good way to encounter your spiritual self, but again those things are 9th house matters. If you choose isolation, I would argue that it's not a 12th house matter, as you have a choice. A monk in a monastery (for example) is in a house of religion, not a prison - 9th house not 12th. This is the case whether he is surrounded by people or chooses to pray in his room all day and never interact with another soul until the day he dies. A prisoner, by contrast, has no agency in his imprisonment and this would be a 12th house matter.
So yes, spiritual matters and meditation often go hand in hand, just not with the 12th house by any traditional astrological standard.
You could, of course, be suffering under 12th house matters - self undoing, vices, sins, drugs, criminality and so on - and use spirituality and meditation to get back on track. Presumably you would still see a lot of 12th house focus in that, but it would relate to the problem rather than the solution.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
Yep. If there any planets that fit in the theme of 12th, that would be Saturn.
No, 12th house is NOT Pisces house, don't assign ABC alphabet natural ruler to the houses. And remember this, Pisces is rule by the benefic Jupiter the planet of hopes, expansion, religion, philosophy, teaching. And the sign Pisces is EXALTED in the benefic Venus, get that straight, Venus is Exalted in Pisces. No, there nothing in 12th house match the theme of the two big benefic Jupiter and Venus.
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TBH I still don’t know and would like to so I can figure out my own 12H placement.
Have read plenty of descriptions, attempted a synthesis of them. Descriptors that reoccur are “secrets, sorrows, self-undoing”; “karmic house”. Seems to hint at multigenerational concerns, guessing here, either continuing or resolving. Gather the 12H is less so about spirituality and more so about transformation through life experience. Still, just gleanings of what it means.
opportunitysure066
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
12th house sun and Jupiter here…and Lilith moon. If you would have told me I would be spiritual (not religious…barf), into reincarnation, tarot, astrology and gemstone healing in the future when I was younger I would have said bullshit…but I am now, and I wouldn’t want it any other way. Also, I don’t want to sound cliché but I may have had an awakening.
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21 hr. ago
This is exactly me lol. I only have NN in 12H Aquarius. Pisces Rising. Mystic rectangle with Mercury, Jupiter conjunct Chiron, Pluto, Neptune conjunct Uranus. I didn’t believe in God, despise religion and still do. I have no other name for it so yes I had an awakening during my Saturn return after my nana passed away.
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To my knowledge, the reason that something like a curse would be a 12th house matter is that regardless of who the 'enemy' is who attempted to curse a person, the nature of the attack is a hidden one, either in action or in attempted outcome. There's a mistaken idea that all witchcraft, good or bad, is 12th house but this appears to have emerged from texts in the past where 'witchcraft' was culturally considered to only be evil magic. Understandable mistake for people to make, I suppose!
I don't think I agree with Coppock's idea of isolated meditation as a 12th house matter. The sort of isolation the 12th house regards is really not the isolation you choose, hence prisons. For meditation, isolated or not, it's likely to be the 9th house.
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Illustrious_View_849
OP
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18 hr. ago
I can see that as well. I also agree that historically magic/witchcraft was considered all bad, hence, associated with 12. I can see rituals and other mundane associations with magic in the 3rd, along with dreams and Goddesses. Do you see wholly bad in the 12th then? What about conspirtualitly, or would that be 9th too?
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
I place magic as a concept almost exclusively in the 9th house, as the third is highly mundane, focussing on very ordinary, day to day and routine things. It's for the same reason that H9 is our special journeys like pilgrimages, where H3 is our commonplace journeys like a commute (this difference is often mischaracterised as 'long or short journeys'). Occasionally it incorporates the 5th house for spells people do (as they are their 'creation') but this likely isn't relevant in a natal context. Dreams are also 9th house matters, and I can see Goddesses as 3rd house only if we are viewing them in the context of being the spouse of another god, in the same way that a native's marriage/spouse is their 7th, and the 3rd is 7 houses from the 9th. Some people also put gods as H10, which would make goddesses (or vice versa depending on which was the ruling god/goddess and which was the spouse) H4.
The 'conspirituality' thing is an interesting one, as it's where context has to be key. The person I might consider victim of conspirituality might consider their views perfectly normal spirituality! Still, if it is their 'self-undoing', then we'd expect the 12th house to be a major factor, possibly with interlinking focus with the 9th, much in the way that e.g. cult membership might show that way. To be frank, it's not a concept I've thought on all that much so consider that last bit general theorising rather than anything defnite.
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Illustrious_View_849
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17 hr. ago
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I never thought of spells in the 5th! Even though the 3rd is full of mundane rituals, I’ve always considered our spiritual rituals within this. I pull a tarot card every morning type ritual. Plus it being the joy of the moon that I’ve gleaned more spiritual undertones. I’m interested in others thoughts on the matter regarding conspirtiuality, and where it may fall. It’s not a new phenomenon, but with the rise of social media, and commercialization of mystical things, it would be interesting in what house it would fall.
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
If it's a small thing you do every day, in the same way you might go to the corner shop every day then sure it might sit in the 3rd as an action. However, the practice of tarot definitely doesn't. It's that whole context thing again, really - where things sit in the chart is frequently relative, like when people say 'other people's money' is always H8. It is if it's an H7 person, but if it's my dad's money then it's H5, as he's H4 (and so on -
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13 hr. ago
Yes, meditation and self-reflection is a good way to encounter your spiritual self, but again those things are 9th house matters. If you choose isolation, I would argue that it's not a 12th house matter, as you have a choice. A monk in a monastery (for example) is in a house of religion, not a prison - 9th house not 12th. This is the case whether he is surrounded by people or chooses to pray in his room all day and never interact with another soul until the day he dies. A prisoner, by contrast, has no agency in his imprisonment and this would be a 12th house matter.
So yes, spiritual matters and meditation often go hand in hand, just not with the 12th house by any traditional astrological standard.
You could, of course, be suffering under 12th house matters - self undoing, vices, sins, drugs, criminality and so on - and use spirituality and meditation to get back on track. Presumably you would still see a lot of 12th house focus in that, but it would relate to the problem rather than the solution.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
Yep. If there any planets that fit in the theme of 12th, that would be Saturn.
No, 12th house is NOT Pisces house, don't assign ABC alphabet natural ruler to the houses. And remember this, Pisces is rule by the benefic Jupiter the planet of hopes, expansion, religion, philosophy, teaching. And the sign Pisces is EXALTED in the benefic Venus, get that straight, Venus is Exalted in Pisces. No, there nothing in 12th house match the theme of the two big benefic Jupiter and Venus.
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I think that in its ideal form, the 12th is truly the modern take: place of spiritual unity with all things, dissolving of the barriers of self and ego and merging with the cosmos. But because that is far and away the most confusing, painful, difficult thing for a human being defined by their physical boundary (body) and identity boundary (personality/ego) it is the place of most resistance and therefore easiest to draw the negative connotations (I.e., imprisonment due to failing to let go of your own spiritual/emotional/physical prisons, the body, emotions, and ego, loss due to forced removal of those things held onto for security and control, illness because denial of those things manifests as blockage and sickness in the body, etc etc)
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jsiqurh444
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1 day ago
For reference, I use Hellenistic methods and whole sign house system.
In one child’s chart, he had moon in the 12th. At the time of his birth, his mother was 22, in an abusive relationship, “self undoing” in so many ways. However, the moon was in late degrees of the 12th by whole sign. The mother got herself out of that situation early in his life and they have only improved over time.
12th house is also exile in ancient astrology. I’ve seen 12th house placements commonly for people living as immigrants but they cannot return to their home, like refugees for example. Or first gens with moon or sun in the 12th and their mother or father, respectively, left their country never to return. 12th tends to have more of an exile/refugee vibe but 9th is more of a by choice/living abroad sense.
12th house as self undoing presenting as addiction and mental health crisis is common.
12th house can also be hospitals. I’ve seen great examples of this, so literal. One case was sun and moon in the 12th and both parents worked in the hospital. In this case the native was also born by c-section and the 12th was Scorpio. Double symbolism. In a different chart the 10th house ruler was in the 12th and they were a doctor working in a hospital.
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jsiqurh444
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1 day ago
After reading other responses I want to also echo something others have touched on:
12th house as spirituality can come from self undoing in the sense that spiritual experiences are common at rock bottom. When you have nothing left, even to the point of losing your self, you need to hang on to some belief or faith in order to make it through. This is different than the 9th which relies more on philosophy and religion in a dogmatic or idealistic sense.
It’s also not necessary for the 12th house to represent every symbol possible. For example, someone could have the 10th ruler in the 12th and be a doctor in a hospital… but never be spiritual or experience tragic loss etc. The promise of any placement can be fulfilled by a single symbol. Maybe there will be future activations of the house, but not necessarily. I don’t think “bad” houses need to be as forbidding as we sometimes make them out to be by reading into them too much.
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gelinotte_II
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1 day ago
An interesting chart for this topic is Pierre Teilhard De Chardin, a Jesuit priest and mystic who tried to reconcile science and Christianity. Depending on what house system you use there's a 12th house stellium of Sun, Neptune, Pluto, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn. In placidus Jupiter and Saturn are in the 11th but within 2° of the 12th cusp, and with whole signs it's all in the 12th. In Taurus this stellium fits his interest in geology and the natural world.
The undoing and suffering aspect of the 12th seem to be less evident in his life, so this is potentially a good example of what a "positive" 12th house might look like.
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neonchicken
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1 day ago
I think it can be a bit of both. The only significant 12th house transit that has a marked effect on me was Saturn through the 12th around a decade ago. It was really challenging and extremely isolating. It was not spiritual. It was a loss of much that was spiritual. It was such a relief to have Saturn move into my first.
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illn3v3rt3ll
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20 hr. ago
How I've seen it played out. My own Mars is in Taurus in the 12th. Undiagnosed ADHD I would drink until I was blacked out regularly and wake up in terrible places with weird people. The eclipses has seen people trying to steal my identity and trick my loved ones into giving them cash disguised as me online (hidden enemies much) the eclipses during a 12th house year has really shown me what things I do to screw myself over.
When Uranus first entered Taurus squaring my moon in Leo I had my passport stolen, my wallet whilst I was abroad. I also spent a night in a drunk tank and found myself alone and going through a spiritual awakening/crisis at the same time. I spent a long time alone in hostel to trying to figure out what was real and what wasn't having been atheist the majority of my life.
I know someone with the moon in Sagittarius the 12th house, she has worked in a women's refuge in Honduras and currently managing a homeless shelter and dealing with people with drug addictions and violence.
Another friend just finished up a Saturn transit in the 12th house Aquarius and has dealt with a lot of addiction issues that weren't present before this transit.
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Commercial-Sky-7889
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17 hr. ago
I also love the idea of the 12th being a house of transition. The moment before birth is a very 12th house moment. In between worlds, you have to surrender and go with whatever push of pull that you experience.
It’s you on your own.
Which is frightening but it also, if you put it in an adult perspective, can have a rewarding aspect to it because it teaches you something about yourself - aka going into the first.
So I think it’s all connected. Spiritual, loss of something, Saturns joy of isolation, the Neptunian other worldly.
I have some friends with heavy 12th house placements. Stellium with a bunch of personal planets and they both experience a lot of loss in a way and as if they have to “give in” a lot of times. On the flipside they’re very sharp in picking up information out of the ether, not afraid of being alone simply because they’re “never alone”
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MercuryHearts
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1 day ago
As a 12th house moon I don't like to think of the 12th house as a bad house. Each house has its roles to play in our lives and are activated as such. Just some experience them deeper than others.
My moon is afflicted by Saturn and Pluto, so having it in the 12th hasn't been easy for me; yet it's kind of turned into a gift in the end.
I struggled with suppressing my emotions most of my life bc I felt no one understood me. Everyone was against me. I genuinely wanted to die until I was about 13 years old and got enlightened. Us 12th house moons feel shit deeply but we have a hard time expressing those feelings. To this day, I rely on music I'm listening to to help decipher my feelings daily bc I may genuinely not know why I'm upset right away.
The gifts of the 12th house are great but misunderstood. I'm a very spiritual person, and I feel alot of stuff that has happened in my life are divine acts or divine meanings to help achieve my higher self. I feel very connected to the other side and my intuition is super on point. I am a sponge for peoples emotions though so I've had to learn to divide that from my feelings. Expressing my feelings through art has helped heal alot of my traumas as well. It's definitely a self healing aspect.
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cap8318
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1 day ago
I can relate to a lot you wrote.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
Since we here talking about 12th house. I want to share this.
Biden has a PACK 12th house. Bush is Cancer Rising with the Sun Leo in 12th. Obama is Aquarius Rising with Saturn in 12th, Obama has Gemini Moon.
Here is a list (I cut and paste from an astrology source) of famous people and celebrities that have 12th house Moon. Not just Moon but other planets in 12th too, but this list concentrate on 12th house Moon.
Charlize Theron – Moon in 12th House, Virgo Ascendant. She has Leo Moon, Sun and Mercury ALL in 12th house.
Milla Jovovich – Moon in 12th House, Cancer Ascendant
Scarlett Johansson – Moon in 12th House, Sagittarius Ascendant
Kendall Jenner – Moon in 12th House, Aries Ascendant
Billie Eilish – Moon in 12th House, Pisces Ascendant
Renée Zellweger – Moon in 12th House, Virgo Ascendant
Björk – Moon in 12th House, Scorpio Ascendant
Mick Jagger – Moon in 12th House, Gemini Ascendant
Russell Crowe – Moon in 12th House, Aquarius Ascendant
Chris Evans (actor) – Moon in 12th House, Scorpio Ascendant
Marilyn Manson – Moon in 12th House, Leo Ascendant
Che Guevara – Moon in 12th House, Aries Ascendant
Bob Marley – Moon in 12th House, Sagittarius Ascendant
Nelson Mandela – Moon in 12th House, Sagittarius Ascendant
Matt Damon – Moon in 12th House, Aquarius Ascendant
Katie Holmes – Moon in 12th House, Leo Ascendant
Rihanna – Moon in 12th House, Aries Ascendant
George Harrison – Moon in 12th House, Scorpio Ascendant
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supergoddess7
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1 day ago
Of this list, Charlize Theron's mother killed her abusive father in her presence. Interesting to see she has a 12th house moon.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
Thanks for sharing! Interesting.
Charlize Theron – Moon in 12th House, Virgo Ascendant. She has Leo Moon, Sun and Mercury ALL in 12th house.
She also have 12th house SUN which means her dad, and 12th house Mercury too. And Moon. So don't leave out the 12th house Sun there too.
With her I don't see the Moon as the case, I see the 12th house SUN more, because 12th house Sun is ABSENT of father. If there anything the Moon her mom PROTECT her.
Btw she is a good actress.
And No, not all 12th house Moon are like her case because that whole list are ALL 12th house Moon people and they don't hav
The Karmic Ghosts of your Natal Chart. Zoom. Join us at 7:15 pm (GMT). Anyone can attend but you must register for a tiny fee first.
https://brightonastrologycircle.com/the-karmic-ghosts-of-your-natal-chart/.
The theme: The Fourth, Eighth, and Twelfth houses compel us to confront the debts, shadows of former incarnations, our connection with our lineage, and the karmic stories associated with our genealogical tree. How can we navigate them in a conscious way? We will explore specific astrological signatures and strategies to empower our clients karmically.
Modern ideas for meanings (spirituality etc.) rely on the two broken modern systems that ignore basic astrological logic. The first is the '12 Letter Alphabet' which equates the 12th house with Pisces (falsely), and the second is shoehorning the outer planets into the dignities scheme, breaking it entirely.
I primarily do horary work, and I have never seen a chart about spirituality resolve beneficially via the 12th house. What I have seen, however, is one chart which showed the person obsessed with their spirituality (House 9 and Lord 9) and utterly dominated by their 12th house (self-undoing, harm etc.) by placement, contact with it's Lord and so on. They eventually left their cult and are much happier now, though they still seem prone to every spiritual fad that pops up online.
Obviously it's easier to be nebulous and vague with primarily psychological modern astrology, as people can be convinced of basically anything about themselves as it will be hard to verify or disprove.
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celestialcranberry
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1 day ago
What an interesting reply. I understand how house 8 is a ‘big bad’ as you say, but why the sixth? If you’re willing to share; I know it can be draining explaining.
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capri-corny
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1 day ago
In traditional astrology, the 6th house represents ill health/sickness (aswell as the 12th, which is usually a more serious illness or hospitalization) and servants. Also, animals too small to ride.
The 6th house is a cadent. Planets in cadent houses are weaker, less effective. Cadent houses are seen as falling away from the angles (1,4,7,10) which are the most effective houses. Planets move in diurnal motion so when they are in cadent houses they are essentially falling away from the angular houses where they have the most strength.
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ma-cells
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1 day ago
Would you place mental health/illness in the 12th as well, given that the 12th rules chronic illnesses and isolation?
I also heard in Vedic astrology, 12th rules foreign places.
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capri-corny
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11 hr. ago
The 6th house mainly represents illnesses of all kinds. It would be the first house I look to regarding any type of illness or in horary I would use the 6th house for the illness in question. Although, the 12th house does represent anguish of mind, secrets, hidden things and isolation, like you mentioned which I could personally see relating to mental illness. You really have to read the chart as a whole, it tells the whole story. The 8th house is the house of death but also things that bring fear and anxiety. I feel these 3 houses really can go hand in hand with some of the mental health things. It would depend on what you are specifically looking for or asking about I guess.
I am unfamiliar with vedic astrology so I can't speak on that but I take the 9th house as foreign places.
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1 day ago
Oh, thank you for this detailed reply. It really puts some sixth houses I’ve looked at in better perspective.
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1 day ago
You've had a partially solid reply regarding why the 6th house is a negative spot (though positing the 12th house as more serious illness and 'hospitals' is not correct in traditional logic), but to expand:
The three houses that do not 'behold' (i.e. form major aspect to) the ascendant are the most negative houses, so that's H6, H8 and H11. We exclude H2 from this, just FYI. As they are broadly 'hidden' from the native they are the places where life's hidden problems sneak up on us from, so:
Illness is the 6th house, death the 8th and 'self undoing', hidden enemies and so on the 12th. Each of them are things we have little knowledge of until they strike.
To clarify my comment regarding the 12th house not relating to more serious illness: this idea comes from the mistaken concept that people who are seriously ill are 'incarcerated' in hospitals, making them the same as prisons which are H12. No matter how sick they are, they are not in prison simply because they are in hospital. It's poor logic. A hospital is the 'house of the sick' so is a 6th house matter.
Thank you for this in depth reply! I typically am attracted to learning about the 8th house, I have 5 planets there in Aries. Most of the rest fall into the sixths house though and something in my heart just….would not let me look into it until now. I am not a beginner by any means but the sixth house and twelfth has damn near hid themselves from me (in regards to myself) until now. So, thank you again for this wonderful insight.
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Yes, meditation and self-reflection is a good way to encounter your spiritual self, but again those things are 9th house matters. If you choose isolation, I would argue that it's not a 12th house matter, as you have a choice. A monk in a monastery (for example) is in a house of religion, not a prison - 9th house not 12th. This is the case whether he is surrounded by people or chooses to pray in his room all day and never interact with another soul until the day he dies. A prisoner, by contrast, has no agency in his imprisonment and this would be a 12th house matter.
So yes, spiritual matters and meditation often go hand in hand, just not with the 12th house by any traditional astrological standard.
You could, of course, be suffering under 12th house matters - self undoing, vices, sins, drugs, criminality and so on - and use spirituality and meditation to get back on track. Presumably you would still see a lot of 12th house focus in that, but it would relate to the problem rather than the solution.
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To my knowledge, the reason that something like a curse would be a 12th house matter is that regardless of who the 'enemy' is who attempted to curse a person, the nature of the attack is a hidden one, either in action or in attempted outcome. There's a mistaken idea that all witchcraft, good or bad, is 12th house but this appears to have emerged from texts in the past where 'witchcraft' was culturally considered to only be evil magic. Understandable mistake for people to make, I suppose!
I don't think I agree with Coppock's idea of isolated meditation as a 12th house matter. The sort of isolation the 12th house regards is really not the isolation you choose, hence prisons. For meditation, isolated or not, it's likely to be the 9th house.
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Illustrious_View_849
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18 hr. ago
I can see that as well. I also agree that historically magic/witchcraft was considered all bad, hence, associated with 12. I can see rituals and other mundane associations with magic in the 3rd, along with dreams and Goddesses. Do you see wholly bad in the 12th then? What about conspirtualitly, or would that be 9th too?
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
I place magic as a concept almost exclusively in the 9th house, as the third is highly mundane, focussing on very ordinary, day to day and routine things. It's for the same reason that H9 is our special journeys like pilgrimages, where H3 is our commonplace journeys like a commute (this difference is often mischaracterised as 'long or short journeys'). Occasionally it incorporates the 5th house for spells people do (as they are their 'creation') but this likely isn't relevant in a natal context. Dreams are also 9th house matters, and I can see Goddesses as 3rd house only if we are viewing them in the context of being the spouse of another god, in the same way that a native's marriage/spouse is their 7th, and the 3rd is 7 houses from the 9th. Some people also put gods as H10, which would make goddesses (or vice versa depending on which was the ruling god/goddess and which was the spouse) H4.
The 'conspirituality' thing is an interesting one, as it's where context has to be key. The person I might consider victim of conspirituality might consider their views perfectly normal spirituality! Still, if it is their 'self-undoing', then we'd expect the 12th house to be a major factor, possibly with interlinking focus with the 9th, much in the way that e.g. cult membership might show that way. To be frank, it's not a concept I've thought on all that much so consider that last bit general theorising rather than anything defnite.
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Illustrious_View_849
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17 hr. ago
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I never thought of spells in the 5th! Even though the 3rd is full of mundane rituals, I’ve always considered our spiritual rituals within this. I pull a tarot card every morning type ritual. Plus it being the joy of the moon that I’ve gleaned more spiritual undertones. I’m interested in others thoughts on the matter regarding conspirtiuality, and where it may fall. It’s not a new phenomenon, but with the rise of social media, and commercialization of mystical things, it would be interesting in what house it would fall.
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
If it's a small thing you do every day, in the same way you might go to the corner shop every day then sure it might sit in the 3rd as an action. However, the practice of tarot definitely doesn't. It's that whole context thing again, really - where things sit in the chart is frequently relative, like when people say 'other people's money' is always H8. It is if it's an H7 person, but if it's my dad's money then it's H5, as he's H4 (and so on - the examples are endless!).
This has been a great talk, thank you.
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starrywinecup
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14 hr. ago
Have you ever considered meditation of the self as a way to find that spirituality? Then again my 12th house is Sagittarius(9th) Because it happened to me, I felt I had no choice but to isolate, otherwise harm would come to me, I had no help, after about a year I emerged with my evolved personal belief and help through my spirituality.
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kidcubby
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13 hr. ago
Yes, meditation and self-reflection is a good way to encounter your spiritual self, but again those things are 9th house matters. If you choose isolation, I would argue that it's not a 12th house matter, as you have a choice. A monk in a monastery (for example) is in a house of religion, not a prison - 9th house not 12th. This is the case whether he is surrounded by people or chooses to pray in his room all day and never interact with another soul until the day he dies. A prisoner, by contrast, has no agency in his imprisonment and this would be a 12th house matter.
So yes, spiritual matters and meditation often go hand in hand, just not with the 12th house by any traditional astrological standard.
You could, of course, be suffering under 12th house matters - self undoing, vices, sins, drugs, criminality and so on - and use spirituality and meditation to get back on track. Presumably you would still see a lot of 12th house focus in that, but it would relate to the problem rather than the solution.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
Yep. If there any planets that fit in the theme of 12th, that would be Saturn.
No, 12th house is NOT Pisces house, don't assign ABC alphabet natural ruler to the houses. And remember this, Pisces is rule by the benefic Jupiter the planet of hopes, expansion, religion, philosophy, teaching. And the sign Pisces is EXALTED in the benefic Venus, get that straight, Venus is Exalted in Pisces. No, there nothing in 12th house match the theme of the two big benefic Jupiter and Venus.
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TBH I still don’t know and would like to so I can figure out my own 12H placement.
Have read plenty of descriptions, attempted a synthesis of them. Descriptors that reoccur are “secrets, sorrows, self-undoing”; “karmic house”. Seems to hint at multigenerational concerns, guessing here, either continuing or resolving. Gather the 12H is less so about spirituality and more so about transformation through life experience. Still, just gleanings of what it means.
opportunitysure066
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
12th house sun and Jupiter here…and Lilith moon. If you would have told me I would be spiritual (not religious…barf), into reincarnation, tarot, astrology and gemstone healing in the future when I was younger I would have said bullshit…but I am now, and I wouldn’t want it any other way. Also, I don’t want to sound cliché but I may have had an awakening.
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21 hr. ago
This is exactly me lol. I only have NN in 12H Aquarius. Pisces Rising. Mystic rectangle with Mercury, Jupiter conjunct Chiron, Pluto, Neptune conjunct Uranus. I didn’t believe in God, despise religion and still do. I have no other name for it so yes I had an awakening during my Saturn return after my nana passed away.
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To my knowledge, the reason that something like a curse would be a 12th house matter is that regardless of who the 'enemy' is who attempted to curse a person, the nature of the attack is a hidden one, either in action or in attempted outcome. There's a mistaken idea that all witchcraft, good or bad, is 12th house but this appears to have emerged from texts in the past where 'witchcraft' was culturally considered to only be evil magic. Understandable mistake for people to make, I suppose!
I don't think I agree with Coppock's idea of isolated meditation as a 12th house matter. The sort of isolation the 12th house regards is really not the isolation you choose, hence prisons. For meditation, isolated or not, it's likely to be the 9th house.
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Illustrious_View_849
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18 hr. ago
I can see that as well. I also agree that historically magic/witchcraft was considered all bad, hence, associated with 12. I can see rituals and other mundane associations with magic in the 3rd, along with dreams and Goddesses. Do you see wholly bad in the 12th then? What about conspirtualitly, or would that be 9th too?
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
I place magic as a concept almost exclusively in the 9th house, as the third is highly mundane, focussing on very ordinary, day to day and routine things. It's for the same reason that H9 is our special journeys like pilgrimages, where H3 is our commonplace journeys like a commute (this difference is often mischaracterised as 'long or short journeys'). Occasionally it incorporates the 5th house for spells people do (as they are their 'creation') but this likely isn't relevant in a natal context. Dreams are also 9th house matters, and I can see Goddesses as 3rd house only if we are viewing them in the context of being the spouse of another god, in the same way that a native's marriage/spouse is their 7th, and the 3rd is 7 houses from the 9th. Some people also put gods as H10, which would make goddesses (or vice versa depending on which was the ruling god/goddess and which was the spouse) H4.
The 'conspirituality' thing is an interesting one, as it's where context has to be key. The person I might consider victim of conspirituality might consider their views perfectly normal spirituality! Still, if it is their 'self-undoing', then we'd expect the 12th house to be a major factor, possibly with interlinking focus with the 9th, much in the way that e.g. cult membership might show that way. To be frank, it's not a concept I've thought on all that much so consider that last bit general theorising rather than anything defnite.
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Illustrious_View_849
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17 hr. ago
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I never thought of spells in the 5th! Even though the 3rd is full of mundane rituals, I’ve always considered our spiritual rituals within this. I pull a tarot card every morning type ritual. Plus it being the joy of the moon that I’ve gleaned more spiritual undertones. I’m interested in others thoughts on the matter regarding conspirtiuality, and where it may fall. It’s not a new phenomenon, but with the rise of social media, and commercialization of mystical things, it would be interesting in what house it would fall.
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kidcubby
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17 hr. ago
If it's a small thing you do every day, in the same way you might go to the corner shop every day then sure it might sit in the 3rd as an action. However, the practice of tarot definitely doesn't. It's that whole context thing again, really - where things sit in the chart is frequently relative, like when people say 'other people's money' is always H8. It is if it's an H7 person, but if it's my dad's money then it's H5, as he's H4 (and so on -
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13 hr. ago
Yes, meditation and self-reflection is a good way to encounter your spiritual self, but again those things are 9th house matters. If you choose isolation, I would argue that it's not a 12th house matter, as you have a choice. A monk in a monastery (for example) is in a house of religion, not a prison - 9th house not 12th. This is the case whether he is surrounded by people or chooses to pray in his room all day and never interact with another soul until the day he dies. A prisoner, by contrast, has no agency in his imprisonment and this would be a 12th house matter.
So yes, spiritual matters and meditation often go hand in hand, just not with the 12th house by any traditional astrological standard.
You could, of course, be suffering under 12th house matters - self undoing, vices, sins, drugs, criminality and so on - and use spirituality and meditation to get back on track. Presumably you would still see a lot of 12th house focus in that, but it would relate to the problem rather than the solution.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
Yep. If there any planets that fit in the theme of 12th, that would be Saturn.
No, 12th house is NOT Pisces house, don't assign ABC alphabet natural ruler to the houses. And remember this, Pisces is rule by the benefic Jupiter the planet of hopes, expansion, religion, philosophy, teaching. And the sign Pisces is EXALTED in the benefic Venus, get that straight, Venus is Exalted in Pisces. No, there nothing in 12th house match the theme of the two big benefic Jupiter and Venus.
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I think that in its ideal form, the 12th is truly the modern take: place of spiritual unity with all things, dissolving of the barriers of self and ego and merging with the cosmos. But because that is far and away the most confusing, painful, difficult thing for a human being defined by their physical boundary (body) and identity boundary (personality/ego) it is the place of most resistance and therefore easiest to draw the negative connotations (I.e., imprisonment due to failing to let go of your own spiritual/emotional/physical prisons, the body, emotions, and ego, loss due to forced removal of those things held onto for security and control, illness because denial of those things manifests as blockage and sickness in the body, etc etc)
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jsiqurh444
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1 day ago
For reference, I use Hellenistic methods and whole sign house system.
In one child’s chart, he had moon in the 12th. At the time of his birth, his mother was 22, in an abusive relationship, “self undoing” in so many ways. However, the moon was in late degrees of the 12th by whole sign. The mother got herself out of that situation early in his life and they have only improved over time.
12th house is also exile in ancient astrology. I’ve seen 12th house placements commonly for people living as immigrants but they cannot return to their home, like refugees for example. Or first gens with moon or sun in the 12th and their mother or father, respectively, left their country never to return. 12th tends to have more of an exile/refugee vibe but 9th is more of a by choice/living abroad sense.
12th house as self undoing presenting as addiction and mental health crisis is common.
12th house can also be hospitals. I’ve seen great examples of this, so literal. One case was sun and moon in the 12th and both parents worked in the hospital. In this case the native was also born by c-section and the 12th was Scorpio. Double symbolism. In a different chart the 10th house ruler was in the 12th and they were a doctor working in a hospital.
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jsiqurh444
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1 day ago
After reading other responses I want to also echo something others have touched on:
12th house as spirituality can come from self undoing in the sense that spiritual experiences are common at rock bottom. When you have nothing left, even to the point of losing your self, you need to hang on to some belief or faith in order to make it through. This is different than the 9th which relies more on philosophy and religion in a dogmatic or idealistic sense.
It’s also not necessary for the 12th house to represent every symbol possible. For example, someone could have the 10th ruler in the 12th and be a doctor in a hospital… but never be spiritual or experience tragic loss etc. The promise of any placement can be fulfilled by a single symbol. Maybe there will be future activations of the house, but not necessarily. I don’t think “bad” houses need to be as forbidding as we sometimes make them out to be by reading into them too much.
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gelinotte_II
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1 day ago
An interesting chart for this topic is Pierre Teilhard De Chardin, a Jesuit priest and mystic who tried to reconcile science and Christianity. Depending on what house system you use there's a 12th house stellium of Sun, Neptune, Pluto, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn. In placidus Jupiter and Saturn are in the 11th but within 2° of the 12th cusp, and with whole signs it's all in the 12th. In Taurus this stellium fits his interest in geology and the natural world.
The undoing and suffering aspect of the 12th seem to be less evident in his life, so this is potentially a good example of what a "positive" 12th house might look like.
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neonchicken
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1 day ago
I think it can be a bit of both. The only significant 12th house transit that has a marked effect on me was Saturn through the 12th around a decade ago. It was really challenging and extremely isolating. It was not spiritual. It was a loss of much that was spiritual. It was such a relief to have Saturn move into my first.
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illn3v3rt3ll
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20 hr. ago
How I've seen it played out. My own Mars is in Taurus in the 12th. Undiagnosed ADHD I would drink until I was blacked out regularly and wake up in terrible places with weird people. The eclipses has seen people trying to steal my identity and trick my loved ones into giving them cash disguised as me online (hidden enemies much) the eclipses during a 12th house year has really shown me what things I do to screw myself over.
When Uranus first entered Taurus squaring my moon in Leo I had my passport stolen, my wallet whilst I was abroad. I also spent a night in a drunk tank and found myself alone and going through a spiritual awakening/crisis at the same time. I spent a long time alone in hostel to trying to figure out what was real and what wasn't having been atheist the majority of my life.
I know someone with the moon in Sagittarius the 12th house, she has worked in a women's refuge in Honduras and currently managing a homeless shelter and dealing with people with drug addictions and violence.
Another friend just finished up a Saturn transit in the 12th house Aquarius and has dealt with a lot of addiction issues that weren't present before this transit.
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Commercial-Sky-7889
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17 hr. ago
I also love the idea of the 12th being a house of transition. The moment before birth is a very 12th house moment. In between worlds, you have to surrender and go with whatever push of pull that you experience.
It’s you on your own.
Which is frightening but it also, if you put it in an adult perspective, can have a rewarding aspect to it because it teaches you something about yourself - aka going into the first.
So I think it’s all connected. Spiritual, loss of something, Saturns joy of isolation, the Neptunian other worldly.
I have some friends with heavy 12th house placements. Stellium with a bunch of personal planets and they both experience a lot of loss in a way and as if they have to “give in” a lot of times. On the flipside they’re very sharp in picking up information out of the ether, not afraid of being alone simply because they’re “never alone”
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MercuryHearts
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1 day ago
As a 12th house moon I don't like to think of the 12th house as a bad house. Each house has its roles to play in our lives and are activated as such. Just some experience them deeper than others.
My moon is afflicted by Saturn and Pluto, so having it in the 12th hasn't been easy for me; yet it's kind of turned into a gift in the end.
I struggled with suppressing my emotions most of my life bc I felt no one understood me. Everyone was against me. I genuinely wanted to die until I was about 13 years old and got enlightened. Us 12th house moons feel shit deeply but we have a hard time expressing those feelings. To this day, I rely on music I'm listening to to help decipher my feelings daily bc I may genuinely not know why I'm upset right away.
The gifts of the 12th house are great but misunderstood. I'm a very spiritual person, and I feel alot of stuff that has happened in my life are divine acts or divine meanings to help achieve my higher self. I feel very connected to the other side and my intuition is super on point. I am a sponge for peoples emotions though so I've had to learn to divide that from my feelings. Expressing my feelings through art has helped heal alot of my traumas as well. It's definitely a self healing aspect.
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cap8318
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1 day ago
I can relate to a lot you wrote.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
Since we here talking about 12th house. I want to share this.
Biden has a PACK 12th house. Bush is Cancer Rising with the Sun Leo in 12th. Obama is Aquarius Rising with Saturn in 12th, Obama has Gemini Moon.
Here is a list (I cut and paste from an astrology source) of famous people and celebrities that have 12th house Moon. Not just Moon but other planets in 12th too, but this list concentrate on 12th house Moon.
Charlize Theron – Moon in 12th House, Virgo Ascendant. She has Leo Moon, Sun and Mercury ALL in 12th house.
Milla Jovovich – Moon in 12th House, Cancer Ascendant
Scarlett Johansson – Moon in 12th House, Sagittarius Ascendant
Kendall Jenner – Moon in 12th House, Aries Ascendant
Billie Eilish – Moon in 12th House, Pisces Ascendant
Renée Zellweger – Moon in 12th House, Virgo Ascendant
Björk – Moon in 12th House, Scorpio Ascendant
Mick Jagger – Moon in 12th House, Gemini Ascendant
Russell Crowe – Moon in 12th House, Aquarius Ascendant
Chris Evans (actor) – Moon in 12th House, Scorpio Ascendant
Marilyn Manson – Moon in 12th House, Leo Ascendant
Che Guevara – Moon in 12th House, Aries Ascendant
Bob Marley – Moon in 12th House, Sagittarius Ascendant
Nelson Mandela – Moon in 12th House, Sagittarius Ascendant
Matt Damon – Moon in 12th House, Aquarius Ascendant
Katie Holmes – Moon in 12th House, Leo Ascendant
Rihanna – Moon in 12th House, Aries Ascendant
George Harrison – Moon in 12th House, Scorpio Ascendant
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supergoddess7
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1 day ago
Of this list, Charlize Theron's mother killed her abusive father in her presence. Interesting to see she has a 12th house moon.
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sahw2015
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1 day ago
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edited 1 day ago
Thanks for sharing! Interesting.
Charlize Theron – Moon in 12th House, Virgo Ascendant. She has Leo Moon, Sun and Mercury ALL in 12th house.
She also have 12th house SUN which means her dad, and 12th house Mercury too. And Moon. So don't leave out the 12th house Sun there too.
With her I don't see the Moon as the case, I see the 12th house SUN more, because 12th house Sun is ABSENT of father. If there anything the Moon her mom PROTECT her.
Btw she is a good actress.
And No, not all 12th house Moon are like her case because that whole list are ALL 12th house Moon people and they don't hav